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Anonymous ## Mod ## 12/02/02(Thu)05:26 No. 5920 ID: 4fb7fa Stickied
5920

File 132815678430.jpg - (161.57KB , 500x452 , 6904084_Untitled-2.jpg )

This thread is for discussion of the validity of religion(s) and arguments for and against the existence of god/gods.

Any other new posts about this subject will be deleted, or locked and referred to this one.

New threads about religious concepts that play inside their own ruleset are allowed, and we kindly ask that you refrain from turning those well meaning threads into arguments about religion as a whole.


291 posts omitted. Last 50 shown.
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Anonymous 14/09/30(Tue)09:07 No. 11829 ID: 2576d3

>>11821
>>11827
No way guys. Akira did it the best because its conclusion was that you turn into a giant baby when a human becomes a God. In my mind, it beat everyone to the punch on that one.


>>
Anonymous 14/11/07(Fri)01:18 No. 11878 ID: e94aad

>>5920
to the agnostic and atheists, i am agnostic and don't know much about science,but,if we go always further back in time we must get to something where matter came from right?many philosophers talked about that,but always put a prime matter,i once heard that matter can be made from energy,all these explainations don't seem satisfactory to me.where did the first thing(be it energy or matter)come from,according to what i know to be the laws of nature this doesn't make sense right?so the most viable way seems to be to think about a Being that trascends the laws of logic and nature that started it all.this is in no way supposed to be an argumentation in favour of god, as i said i am agnostic, just wanted to hear some counterargumentations(only thing i can think about is that we get to a point with science and physics where we understand how the first thing created itself


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PlutoniumBoss!Y1SVQJ54eA 14/11/07(Fri)10:25 No. 11880 ID: 465a65

>>11878
The how is not as important as you think. Once we concede the point that a thing may create itself, we must concede that other things may create themselves too. Then all we need to do is observe something in the universe creating itself or spontaneously existing, and we have done that. Particles create themselves all the time. They manifest in pairs, a particle and an antiparticle, which almost always annihilate each other at the instant they appear. But at the edges of event horizons of black holes, sometimes tidal forces are enough to capture one of the pair while letting the other escape. This would mean we would detect a distinct radiation signature coming from black holes, and this radiation was mathematically calculated and predicted before actually being detected and verified. We don't really need to know exactly how something can come out of nothing to state empirically that it does happen.


>>
Anonymous 14/11/07(Fri)16:58 No. 11881 ID: e94aad

>>11880
we have reports of matter creating itself?


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PlutoniumBoss!Y1SVQJ54eA 14/11/09(Sun)17:32 No. 11882 ID: 465a65

>>11881
Yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle


>>
Anonymous 14/11/13(Thu)17:28 No. 11886 ID: 2027db

>>11882
>matter creating itself
>virtual particles

Maybe go watch a couple of Youtube videos on virtual particles and pertubation theory before attempting to sound smart.


>>
PlutoniumBoss!Y1SVQJ54eA 14/11/14(Fri)01:03 No. 11889 ID: 465a65

>>11886

Virtual particles are identical to "real" particles in all ways other than duration. They are for all intents and purposes matter coming from nothing.


>>
Anonymous 14/12/30(Tue)08:05 No. 11958 ID: 39a3d4

>>11821
no wonder this board is so slow


>>
Anonymous 15/01/09(Fri)11:41 No. 11975 ID: 563380
11975

File 142080008827.png - (210.21KB , 415x531 , faggot45.png )

>not being religious ironically
>dub-fifteen

>user was banned for this post


>>
EL NEGRO 15/01/10(Sat)07:14 No. 11976 ID: f20e67

Well, you have to keep in mind that, when dealing with virtual particles, there is another force that produces them, like in the electromagnetic repulsion between two forces htat produces them. Basically they need to have a cause, they behave different than normal particles, but they are a product of some other entity.


>>
EL NEGRO 15/01/10(Sat)07:14 No. 11977 ID: f20e67

Well, you have to keep in mind that, when dealing with virtual particles, there is another force that produces them, like in the electromagnetic repulsion between two forces htat produces them. Basically they need to have a cause, they behave different than normal particles, but they are a product of some other entity.


>>
EL+NEGRO 15/01/10(Sat)07:23 No. 11978 ID: f20e67

Now another argument that I hold is: the fulfillment of the prophecies in the bible. Now, you can think I am pretty fucking stupid ( which is probably true) but I've found the evidence of secret societies that have existed for thousands of years, that advocate for the mysteries of Babylon and the mysteries of satanism. The following are the only webpages from where I can prove some point:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite_of_Memphis-Misraim

http://www.ordeniluminati.net/english.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licio_Gelli

I mioght have gone crazy, but I truly think there is some truly bizarre shit going on


>>
Anonymous 15/01/29(Thu)12:59 No. 12012 ID: 72041e

Mkay, innocent question:

If God or Gods cannot be seen or heard or perceived in general, how can you prove he /they exist? and how can you prove he/they do not exist?

Another question:

I've noticed that people that say god exist and their justification is always metaphysical (spiritual, if you may).

I've also noticed that people that say god doesnt exist justify this claim on empirical (scientific, if you may) terms.

Can you hold that god exists empirically (scientifically)? can you explain that god does not exist metaphisicaly (spiritualy)?

Also, the third naive question:

Say you consider absurd that some people believe in a god because it does not exist.

Is it not also absurd to believe (BELIEVE) that he doesn't exist?

Not advocating for agnosticism, just asking for justifications on why god exists or god does not exist is any better than the other or any better or worse than neutrality.


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Anonymous 15/01/29(Thu)20:35 No. 12014 ID: 465a65

>If God or Gods cannot be seen or heard or perceived in general, how can you prove he /they exist? and how can you prove he/they do not exist?

You can't.

>Can you hold that god exists empirically (scientifically)?

Nope.

>can you explain that god does not exist metaphisicaly (spiritualy)?

If it amuses you to do so, yes.

>Is it not also absurd to believe (BELIEVE) that he doesn't exist?

Not really. Belief and knowledge are separate concepts. Expressing belief that God exists is not an absurdity. Expressing knowledge that God exists is.


>>
Anonymous 15/03/04(Wed)05:51 No. 12078 ID: 326949

does god have to be a god in the traditional sense; could he or her not be an advanced being that visited the earth long ago, or could god not e nature anthropomorphized? In Confession of the Last Lowly Warrior the so-called FALL is depicted as the descent from a natural tribal state to the artificial feudal state, so that the fractured society depicted in several creation myths is the formation of the elite ruling class and the common labor class. that would mean creation refers to the creation of the feudal world and a feudal humanity, and not the creation of the physical world and or our species. what do you think?


>>
dhb 15/03/22(Sun)08:04 No. 12103 ID: 7dd04f

A God has no NEED or WANT. Need and want is a human condition, not that of a God. There is no NEED for religion, or followers by a God. Therefore ALL organized religion is a farce. If God were to want or need anything, God would simply WILL it and it would be done, or would have been done without a need for man. God doesn't WANT and NEED man, it is man that WANTS and NEEDS God to escape FEAR. So man created religion which is actually just that, FEAR. Because FEAR is control. Hence, FEAR is GOD. Islam just took it up a notch.


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Anonymous 15/04/17(Fri)22:55 No. 12131 ID: 31099f

>It implies you don't know what you believe.

It can easily imply that you belief, that you do not know whether X exists.


>"Do you live your life with the assumption that God(s) exists?"

I live with the assumption that I do not know whether God(s) exists.


I understand that it's very unlikely that some main stream religion is completely right. But the concept of God is much wider used than just for that purpose. There might be some form of intelligence related to our origin, there might not be. I don't have any evidence, so I don't know.


Maybe people are so pressured to hear an agnostic say he thinks one way or another, is due to the underlying reasoning that this influence some type of black and white moral behavior. But it doesn't. You don't need to be so deterministic to decide what you think is right.


>>
Anonymous 15/06/07(Sun)22:37 No. 12218 ID: 107312

>>12103

An entity that we would describe as "God" would have no wants or needs as we know them. However, the concept of "God" very much has a "want" and a "need" for people to propagate it, because if they stop doing so the concept ceases to exist. A "God" would not care either way if people believe in it or not. The picture of God that lives in peoples' heads, however, fears being forgotten because that is death to it.


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Anonymous 15/08/31(Mon)08:05 No. 12273 ID: 369e77

Think of "god" as a parent.
If you live under this imaginary beings rules, you end up falling back on this parental figure when you cannot solve a problem yourself.

While "god" may have been a nice thing back before we had to diagnose what the fuck we're doing to our planet, we've kind of made it so that we have complete control over the fate of our existence, and therefore, the responsibility to take care of ourselves, instead of laying our faith in something which cannot be proven to even exist at any capacity.


>>
Anonymous 15/12/24(Thu)15:53 No. 12372 ID: f5f04c

>>6487
Even though most religions and most religious people don't agree with these lines of thought, I will respond.
You say that religious people have dangerously relative morality, but religion is the only logical system that can provide absolute morality. No other philosophy has ever came up with an absolute right and wrong, or at least none that I think you could accept as the one and only right and wrong.
A religion can conclude absolute morality out of the existence of a god, and a god is the only source of absolute morality.
Even a Leviathon can't replace such a god, as anybody who considers himself outside of the authority of the leviathon, even anybody born after the first agreements were made, has no part of this morality, making a leviathon a source for relative morality.
So: Yes, religion can cause relative morality in humans in some cases, but it is the only thing that can cause logically valid absolute morality.
OT: Out of the 30 students in my philosophy class, only one student other than me believed that absolute morality exists, and we were two out of four religious students.


>>
Anonymous 16/01/06(Wed)14:56 No. 12397 ID: aeacb3

>>5999
What about all the things that aren't perfect about human bodies? Birth defects, using the same tube for eating and breathing, visual blind spots, wisdom teeth, the appendix, etc.


>>
Anonymous 16/01/16(Sat)11:13 No. 12411 ID: f8cb32

>>12397
If you didnt notice, you are replying to a statement made 4 years ago.
Not about the thread.... My question is that even if there is a God, does it matter. Maybe we are an abandoned failed experiment just festering on this petri dish of a mudball. Might explain why we can't find other lifeforms, or why we are more evolved by lightyears than any other lifeforms on earth.


>>
Aura 16/04/19(Tue)04:01 No. 12502 ID: 0ccaee

>>12411
There's no such thing as being 'more evolved.' Evolution is not a linear progression, new bits of dna show up and old bits sometimes go away, it's almost purely random.


>>
Anonymous 16/10/16(Sun)03:24 No. 12684 ID: 8dc66d

>>5920
I hope this is suffice.
8ch.net/christian/catalog.html
textuploader.com/5bg6i


>>
Anonymous 16/11/09(Wed)20:54 No. 12711 ID: 251fba

I've never denied the possible existence of a deity, but I've never understood the thinking of those who believe in one (especially when it comes to Christians).

"God can't control free will." Then how is it that he causes miracles? Let's say a drunkard chooses to drive his way home after he wobbles out of the local bar. He causes a head-on collision with a teenager.

In the situation which the teen survives the crash, people assume there must have been some sort of divine intervention. Of course, there is NO WAY it could have been because of the intelligent engineers who created a vehicle which was capable of saving lives. No, it was God who saved the teen. Anyways, the religious will attribute the life of the teen to the mercy of God. But the collision was a direct result of the drunkard's free will. Granted God isn't directly effecting free will, God is negating the whole point of free will. Why have free will if God is going to fix the results of said free will?

This assuming the validity of man-written scripts that were supposedly written from God's words, the belief God follows the rules he created, the belief God is omnipotent, all-knowing, all-powerful, but at the same unable to help everyone on the planet, the belief that Earth is the only planet/life residing on said planet God watches over (or the fact God only cares for the humans based on the lack of description of any other kinds of life he created), etc. I could go on and on and on about the non-validates and holes in the beliefs I have a thorough understanding of.

Now let's say the teen dies during the collision. In the situation which it is plausible to assume God can heal and protect, it is also plausible to assume he can hurt and destroy. How do we know he doesn't cause the evil in this world along with the good (assuming good and evil is an existent entity and not a notion made up by the moralities of man). How can one assume a God who is willing to send the ones he loves to eternal torture (even when their lack of faith is perfectly plausible) is one who wouldn't cause harm? He could even be just a sadist, causing death and pain for his sick twisted desired.

If I were to believe in a god with certainty, it wouldn't be with any existing religion (especially any branch of Christianity).


>>
Good point Joey 17/01/02(Mon)06:25 No. 12780 ID: 8d3dfb

That does bring up an interesting point how do we know God does not control our free will what if the voice in our head is not us but some one else who controls any thing and every thing


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Anonymous 17/03/01(Wed)16:10 No. 12840 ID: 19b3e3

>>6195
Thnx, it is beautiful


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423423 17/03/13(Mon)15:25 No. 12849 ID: d874d2

philosophical zombie


>>
Anonymous 17/04/04(Tue)00:50 No. 12875 ID: 946ad3

A concept of belief in religious context stands in contradiction to rationale. Have you given a rationale, you have failed the concept of belief. God is ungraspable and indefinable to the human mind. Hence any movement that defines god, has already failed the concept of god. Hence pasacals wager is bullshit.

Retort: This exemplifies the structure of alleged self-refutation of kantian transcendental idealism as posed by Bolzano, especially to be found in neuer anti-kant. More concretely that the proposition "No positive nor negative judgement about the thing in itself can be given" is itself a judgement about the thing in itself.
Bolzano in the wissenschaftslehere (1837) goes on to accept that he is not entirely opposed to the thing in itself, but then demands that the thing and exactly how it cannot be known, should be specified.

This is setting up an almost too obvious trap for the kantian since it forces him, in any response to presuppose more than he can know.

Bolzano further has, himself, a somewhat pragmatic view of religion, though he often speaks otherwise. In short, he does not feel convinced that Christianity bears any genuine truth, but rather that it is a genuine truth that religion bears the potential for keeping shitheads in line, which i personally find somewhat persuasive, was it not because of the disgusting immigrants and psycho Americans.

Furthermore, agnosticisme is the only rational position. However it is not a sustainable position. Hence rationality must go over irrationality, in order to preserve rationality. Ie. By accepting religion or metaphysical terminology by pragmatic notions, in the face of necessary non-knowledge. Perhaps something interesting could be said about this in relation to Carnaps 1956 writing empiricism, semantics, and ontology. So there is being. Goldmans casual relativist theory of epistemic frameworks supervenes heavily on it.

Idealism is interesting, aber es ist Schwärmerei. In the sense of fanaticism.

Best argument for god is either pragmatic og irrational, which will not count as real philosophy on the opposite side of the discussion. Which is why we still have jobs, aside from writing about shitty, stinking, boring environmental fucking ethics. Keep disagreeing faggy gentlemen


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Anonymous 17/04/18(Tue)09:06 No. 12895 ID: ef933e
12895

File 149249916541.png - (925.06KB , 996x3150 , 765bbd4d90467ee5a115fcc235c1047e80d26ce225a32226a4.png )

https://www.youtube.com/user/AominOrg/videos?&ytbChannel=Alpha%20%26%20Omega%20Ministries


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goof 17/05/15(Mon)02:51 No. 12931 ID: 650b92

>>12875
circular logic much?


>>
random observer 17/09/03(Sun)03:48 No. 13103 ID: c5bd54

I think it is ironic that if we CAN understand something, then it cannot be God doing it. If we cannot understand something then we must apply the Scientific Method to it to prove it is real. If you must get to something outside of what science can prove, then it cannot exist.

I don't understand how random rays of light cause chemical reactions in my brain such that I can see a beautiful sunset. Yet, I believe I see beauty in sunsets.

I cannot prove a "beautiful" sunset exists since science cannot prove beauty... Therefore it must not be real.

At times, I feel like something beautiful points me to something outside myself, something higher, that must have set the standard...
Dare I say appreciation of beauty is designed into us?
Dare i say by a designer?...
Dare I say by God?...

Or...It must be random chemicals firing again in that randomly created thing inside my head. Surly random chance accounts for everything right?


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Anonymous 17/09/14(Thu)10:14 No. 13114 ID: fb1845

The point is that if you're going to say there IS something, them you have the provide evidence for it.

We have evidence people can and do make up gods all the time, yet we have zero evidence for a god when we look for axiomatic evidence.


>>
Anonymous 17/11/07(Tue)07:09 No. 13264 ID: 443c1c

>>13114
We who believe in a god have seen the evidence and accepted it. You who have chosen atheism have seen the same evidence and named it something else. Every atheist I've ever spoken to has believed in the same god as me, but has ascribed it a different name. There is nothing to prove.


>>
Anonymous 17/11/07(Tue)07:13 No. 13265 ID: 443c1c

>>13103
Those who walk the spiritual path and choose to connect with what some call God usually learn that there is no such thing as "coincidence," or any random happening. It all happens by design, sometimes by a telepathic, hivemind design, transcending the control of any one individual.

I know there will be some present who know what I am speaking of.


>>
Anonymous 17/11/07(Tue)07:18 No. 13266 ID: d75d96

>>13264
>>13265
There is no proof of a divine will behind the existence of anything. Stories from two thousand years ago and more don't count as evidence. That said, I'm no atheist myself, and consider existence itself to be evident of purpose in it, but fuck you and your "proof" of divinity.


>>
Anonymous 17/11/07(Tue)07:32 No. 13268 ID: 443c1c

>>12012
>If God or Gods cannot be seen or heard or perceived in general, how can you prove he /they exist? and how can you prove he/they do not exist?

>I've noticed that people that say god exist and their justification is always metaphysical (spiritual, if you may).

>I've also noticed that people that say god doesnt exist justify this claim on empirical (scientific, if you may) terms.

>Can you hold that god exists empirically (scientifically)? can you explain that god does not exist metaphisicaly (spiritualy)?

Through science, we are beginning to find that there is a bond between particles that supercedes spacial relations, probably temporal relations as well (as exceeding time and space has been my own firsthand psychic experience, but for now, that is beside the point). This is Quantum Physics.
The observation phenomenon (probably not the official name for it, but they have begun to find that matter acts differently depending on whether it is being observed.) is clear evidence towards the fact that consciousness creates matter, not the other way around.
We are given free will by a mass of electrons (electricity) flowing through our brains at all moments. The nuclei of atoms seem to be matter, whereas the electrons are energy. Consciousness seems to lie somewhere between these.
Likewise, consciousness does not end at the physical limitations of the body. It extends as far as energy can flow. I know this, because I have held long-distance telepathic conversations with several loved ones. I can probably not prove this, but I would like you to know it. It is from my own first-hand experience I draw conclusions.
Consciousness is everywhere, even lying dormant in abiotic things in the form of some kind of energy. This consciousness, from which we all stem, is the thing that religious people call God.
I hope that explains.

That being said, knowing we create our own realities, I choose to acknowledge that the power of God lies within the self, and I invoke this power frequently to perform what some might call "magic," and others might call "energy work." (We all believe in the same shit and argue over what to call it)


>>
Anonymous 17/11/07(Tue)07:35 No. 13269 ID: 443c1c

>>13266
I never quoted the bible and I don't read it bro. Judging by your response, you didn't follow my original comment, and should not be responding to it. No offense intended. Just letting you know. I'm not even religious.

I also ended one of my messages by saying "there is nothing to prove." So by saying "fuck my proof," you are just proving you don't know how to read. Please pay more attention in the future. Best of wishes, not trying to be a dick.


>>
Anonymous 17/11/07(Tue)14:25 No. 13270 ID: f50954

>>13269
Yeah, I didn't bother reading any other part of the thread; still haven't. I'm literate, but not masochistic.

I took your "nothing to prove" statement as arrogance, the kind one usually hears from Abrahamic cultists who are so confident in their dogma that they genuinely believe they have concluded it to be true.


>>
Anonymous 17/11/08(Wed)19:35 No. 13272 ID: 2eccf1

>>13270
I understand how you could do that


>>
Anonymous 17/12/24(Sun)15:07 No. 13396 ID: ce81e2

So I always believed that the Bible was true but I always thought it was metaphorical, not a historical account. I started thinking I was wrong and tried to look at it literally. It's amazing but despite how old it is, everything is still scientifically sound and correct. It really is entirely true not just a metaphorical account meant to spread belief.

If you are having doubts I suggest you commit to looking at it openly and being as good as you can. Do what you can to please God and ask him to return the favor.

I was going through a lot of trouble and asked God to send me an angel and he did. I think it was the Virgin Mary but I only know for a fact it was indeed an angel and did answer my prayers. It was a beaut


>>
Pukanie Pukich 18/01/01(Mon)14:35 No. 13406 ID: f3df15

Puk-P-u-u-u-k_Pppppp-UUUU-K


>>
Anonymous 18/01/21(Sun)23:54 No. 13423 ID: 2fadff

>>6477
>When you accept the existence of a force greater than humanity you absolve yourself of responsibility
>not believing in determinism
>not realizing pretty much everything is beyond our control
Congratulations, you're just as stupid as the people you're decrying.


>>
Anonymous 18/04/24(Tue)18:14 No. 13506 ID: f28ee1

>>13423
>not believing our thoughts form the universe
On a long enough timeline, nothing is beyond our control--unless we annihilate ourselves or allow ourselves to be annihilated.


>>
Anonymous 18/08/12(Sun)14:48 No. 13595 ID: 4900f1
13595

File 153407812198.jpg - (30.12KB , 700x449 , 006A8E2D-DB33-40D5-B82B-2AF2E10FB5C3.jpg )

Recently in Argentina has been getting bigger the campaign for having once for all a lay state.
What do you guys think about non-lay state countries?


>>
Anonymous 18/09/13(Thu)01:09 No. 13618 ID: e66aa5

>>13595
I'm bored. Someone please explain to me aurally how I need to accept this toupeed cheetoh as my president. I'm waiting three, zero, zero, (no wait), four, one, nine, (wait still) zero, two, seven, five seconds. People always act high and might online but as soon as a voice is involved they lose their courage.


>>
Anonymous 18/09/29(Sat)11:01 No. 13644 ID: 3f71f7

>>13618
You don't have to accept him because he simply is your president, granted that you live in the US.

He simply is...


>>
vadality of religions tomska 18/10/15(Mon)14:10 No. 13664 ID: 231a2f

I believe the we humans are mere unintellegent beings. that dont have the technology or knowledge to accuratly predict the meaning or cause/origin of life. and that we are wasting out time and energy on something that can only hurt our society. I mean think about this, what if we proved there's no meaning of life , then everyone could be a nihilist, and one of two possible outcomes would occur, no one would work to get anything done on earth and just let humanity rot away into nothingness, or mass chaos and panic would strike and earth would no longer be safe for any humans, or even plants and animals. But what do i know anyway Im just a 13 year old boy.


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Anonymous 18/11/01(Thu)09:38 No. 13694 ID: 0bccb5
13694

File 154106153818.jpg - (42.41KB , 457x535 , lb.jpg )

>>5920

You should read W (or the law of inevitables)


>>
Anonymous 18/12/06(Thu)07:45 No. 13791 ID: 323de9

cool



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